Cost of programming

[Andrey]

Hello, dear KNX-specialists!
My name is Andrey, I'm from Russia.
I have one question for you:
If it's possible tell me how does you calculate a cost of your KNX-installation programming and commissioning services and installation works.
It would be ideally if you'll say the process of calculating.
For example at this time we calculate on average this like here:
pcsc - cost of programming and commissioning service;
sdc - system devices cost;
iwc - installation works cost;
iwsm - installation works cost per square meter;
fs - floorspace of object;

pcsc = sdc*0,2
iwc = fs*0,8*iwsm

P.S. rey.pak@gmail.com

[Meudenbach]

hmmm, I mean you can't calculate it only by a simple formula. You have to many individual parameters to keep in mind.
I calculate only by device and make a fixed price. The parameters of your "iwsm" can't be use or are not in case with the programming cost's...

How you want handle it if customer want's to have surfaces in gold instead of standard's. In this case you didn't have additional expenses in programming. But your term can't handle it...

Kind regards...

[plein]

Hi Andrey,

please tell me in 6 month if your company is still there... ;-)

No, serious, this formula is not bad, but too simple, because the parameters on the building site are mostly different than you can see before.

The right way could be:
Device cost + overheads in % + work time = retail price

That needs an evaluation of the expected number off devices and functions. A m2 price for a Knx installation is like a weather forecast for more than a few days: 50/50

Best regards

[Andrey]

Thank's for your answers!
Good to see any reaction for my question.
Ok, let me explain some part of my question.
1. All of my examples is "on average".
2. Example with iwc was just introduced as example of cabining (cable montage works) cost, again "on average".
3. Off course we have a lot of State Standards to use for calculating, but it's not suitable for fast calculating of programming and commissioning service works. And of course its too simple pcsc = sdc*0,2.
4. I thought there can be European Standards or usually used methods.

Meudenbach:
"How you want handle it if customer want's to have surfaces in gold instead of standard's. In this case you didn't have additional expenses in programming. But your term can't handle it..."
The /sdc/ parameter included just KNX-devices such as actuators, sensors & etc, but not of any plates or surfaces or electricity generating plant!

plein:
"That needs an evaluation of the expected number off devices and functions. A m2 price for a Knx installation is like a weather forecast for more than a few days: 50/50"
Example with /iwc/ was just introduced as example of cabining (cable montage works) cost, again "on average".
Please tell me in detail your parameters /overheads in %/(is it within 20-30% ?) and /work time/ (is it work hours*cost of hour ?).

Thanks again for your answer's!

[plein]

Hi,

yes, overhead means all other direct and indirect costs of your company (cars, energy, notebooks, software, handling, ...) and its about 30 %.
The percentage (average, like your pcsc) must be included in the retail.

Work time are the direct hours for installing, programming and commissioning (your iwc) . All other times like travel time, meetings, offering, ..., should be already included in the overhead.

But: therfore you have to evaluate the expected number off devices and functions as exactly as possible. Is this not possible, an increasing of the parameter "risk" is recommend.

By the way:
retail + profit + risk = sell price

Best regards

[Andrey]

Hi,
Thanks for your answer!
Actually your scheme is close analogy to our calculating(what we have use now). :Prost:
By the way if it's possible can you give me a link or something else about European Standards or some Usually Used Methods of calculating?

Anyway it would be interesting for me to see calculating process on real data.
Please tell me if it's possible: I'll send you for example a list of KNX-devices, all the equipment (switchboard, wiring and etc) and floor plans, and you'll send me back something like business proposal where i can find more or less structured list of works (1.Montage\intstallation works; 2.commissioning services; 3.programming; 4.may be someting like making scenario and userinterface and etc.).

Of course confidentiality will be keeped.

[tstalzer]

Hi Andrey


pcsc = sdc*0,2
I don't think this should be coupled to the device cost. The device cost doesn't say anything about the complexitiy of programming the device. E.g. If you use a MicroVis as your entry system, for the cost of about 200EUR, you may spend days programming the interface until the customer is satisfied. On the other hand, if you use a 16-way binary actor for 800EUR, the programming may be done in 15 Minutes.

I would rather use the required functionality independent of the hardware used as a factor for the complexity of the programming services

Binary channel - x EUR
Dimming channel - xx EUR
Light scenes - xxx EUR
Visualization/Media - xxxxx EUR
etc.


iwc = fs*0,8*iwsm
Also this factor needs to be defined in a different way. e.g. for 300 square meters, you may have 4 apartements with lots of actors/Sensors/etc or you may have a 3 room Villa with just a handful of light scenes.

So -
Installation costs depends on the number of devices and size/layout of a building

Programming costs depends on the complexity of the required functionality

Just my 2 cents

--Thomas