heating

[bowa]

Ok, first of all, i am quite new to EIB, and i dont speak german very well, so please forgive me for writing in english, youc an reply in german if you prefer, reading is a lot easier than writing.

I am renovating a loft and i have it 'wired' with the green eib cable already (http://loft.bowa.be/loft10/slides/DSCF1620.html).
as a main 'controlling' device i would like to use a gira smartsensor which has an integrated temperature sensor, as my loft is just one 'room' i think that should be enough. but my question now is, how is heating steered by EIB systems mostly implemented.
i will use this heating device by vaillant (http://www.vaillant.de/product.php?folder_default_tree=10002-10005-10015&folder_default_netfolderID=10215&folder_where_from=default&product_default_id=120). Now, please correct me if i am wrong, i think a heater like this has a 'circulation pump' that lets the hot water flow trough the radiators. and that the working of the circulation pump is controlled by the eib system? is that right ?

thanks in advance for your insight.

bruno

[Matthias Schmidt]

Dear Bruno,

your thoughts about the heating device are wrong. The Vaillant things works completely without influence by EIB. The only influence is the temperature outside. It modulates the the burner and togheter with a mixer device it brings warm water to your radiators by the circulation pump. Normally you cannot control the Vaillant system by EIB. This is only possible with Viessmann and Buderus.

You can control via (EIB-)valves the energy that will taken out form your radiators. The Smartsensor sends signals to a heating actuator which will open or close the valve on your radiators.

The vaillant Therme will reduce its power when the difference in temperature between outgoing water and incoming water is low. But the circulation pump will be always on.

The Buderus or Viessmann solution is different: In this case the smartsensor would tell the Therme that energy is needed (IST < Soll) and based on the difference the Therme would produce hot water for the radiators. If none of the temperature sensors in the room would signal "I need energy", the burner and the circulation pumps are shut off. The outside temperature in this case has no (ore only little) influence.

[bowa]

Mathias,

thanks for your quick reply.

would this kettle work ? with this principle ? http://www.heiztechnik.buderus.de/sixcms/detail.php?id=134743

do the radiators need a valve then or they just valveless ??

the other option with the valliant kettle, then the radiators each need a valve like this ? thermischer stellerantrieb ? (http://www.eibmarkt.com/cgi-bin/eibmarkt.storefront/414594700111bb86273f50f336080653/Product/View/N183938)

[Matthias Schmidt]

The Buderus would work. The EIB-Module is FM446. The radiators do always have valves because you normally have more than one room and you want to control the temperature in each room separately.

Your one-room-one-sensor-one-kettle-solution should work without valves, but I wouldn't do it.


The "thermischer Stellantrieb" are the devices that are normally used (I have them, too). The cheap and noiseless. You need to have a N605 (Siemens) or similar Aktor to control them.

[bowa]

ok, i ll think about the boderus, but i ll think it will be a lot more expensive :(

so if i go for the vaillant, the solution with the 'thermischer Stellantrieb' would be an option to consider ?

although i have 1 room, i would like to for example turn on the radiator in the bathroom corner up, for 'radiational heat' when i take shower.
so what i could do is, install on each of the 5 radiators in my loft one of these 'thermischer stellantrieb' things and connect them to the N605 on my dinrail board. i could use the smartsensor for measuring the temperature and according to that open one or more radiators valves trough the n605 device ? (perhaps have an extra temp sensor near the shower for better measuring there) -- what kind of cabling would i need from the radiators to the n605 then ? and are the gira 'thermischer Stellantrieb' things to be recommended or do they exist from other manufacturers too ?

[Matthias Schmidt]

:) The idea with the shower corner is the reason why I would always use thermoelectric valves on each radiator.

If you want to control the valves differently, but you have only one sensor, then you can use the "Zwangs-Stellung-Objekt" on the N605. That means, you can force the valve to go in a distinct position, no matter what the smartsensor says.

If you use the N605, then you just need a 2 wire cable. However, it is better to use a 5 x 1,5. I would also recommend to bring an EIB-wire to the radiator, just for later expansions.

The Gira part is not made by Gira, it is made by Möhlenhoff http://www.moehlenhoff.de/e/0-prod-asy.htm and sold under different labels. There are other manufacturers, too. I like the Möhlenhoff part because you can see whether the valve is open or not.

[Matthias Schmidt]

Connection looks like this in my house:

[bowa]

ok, first time i can really use the cable guides (http://loft.bowa.be/loft14/slides/DSCF2453.html) i have put in can come to use, if i need pull the steering for the valves :)

thanks for all the information !

[Gaston]

Original geschrieben von Matthias Schmidt
The vaillant Therme will reduce its power when the difference in temperature between outgoing water and incoming water is low.

The explanation in this whole thread from Matthias are very complete and I will not restart all this. Just a word about this common mistake. The statement above yells for some "device" comparing the incoming and outgoing temperature of the heating in order to regulate the used power, and thus would make believe that it is a "special feature" while it isn't. Infact this is done by any (even old) Heating. The point is that the heating knows which temperature the outgoing water needs to have. The hotter the incoming water the lkess energy is used to get the outgoing water up to that temperature.

The difference here in modern heatings is not the "delta" computation, but the modulation (as mentioned by Matthias). While old heatings do have to pulse (switch on/off) new (especialy natural gas based) heatings would modulate, that means reduce the power of the heating flames. The advantage is not the regulation nor really the gas consumption (only at very minor extend) but a longer life with less maintenance of the heating. However this allows another technique, which is, using only a very small amount of water in the heating and this in turn allows for reduced gas consumption. The back-end of this is however that hydrolic equilibration of the heating pipe system is mandatory and very important as a minimum water flow must be guarantied.

Here comes in the advantage of the EIB regulated system. Since the reduced water would allow for economies in gas, the problem is like Matthias mentioned also, that in a non EIB regulated heating the pump will always run (at least during the "heating hours"), since the heating has no other way to detect when heat is required. This menat that the water is constantly running thru the pipes and cooling down, requiring useless heating of the water. Additionally, since this is not a high consumption this will cause the heating to pulse again, since it cannot mudulate down to small energy values.

The EIB regulation has one drawback which is that it results in two cumulative regulations. The way it works is that the heating power is regulated according to the room with the highest energy use (i.e. valve position). If that room now needs less energy, its regulation will start closing the valve. However as a result the heating will also reduce its outgoing water temperature (i.e the delivered energy), which makes the radiators cools down more than the regulation would expect. It is however very hard to calculate in which extend this could influence the heating regulation. If ever, this would only have an impact on very cold days (approaching the available heating energy limits). So this was only to give you the complete picture, because as a conclusion (and I have done some extensive calculations on the matter in the past) the heating with EIB is the best one could select.

P.S.: Matthias, please don't take it wrong, this is no blame, only a clarification of your writings :)

Best regards,
Gaston

[bowa]

thanks for the insight gaston.

but i think i ll have to start with the valliant ... not the 'real eib' controlled heating, with the continuous running circulation pump, a you describe it ... cos its half the price of the bogerus one and right now budget is kind of tight.

:(

[OStein]

The vaillant Therme will reduce its power when the difference in temperature between outgoing water and incoming water is low. But the circulation pump will be always on.

Not entirely true... the pump in the "exclusiv" version of the Vaillant ecoTec's has a variable rotation speed that is controlled by the modulation system.

[Gaston]

Hi bowa,

I believe that the two heatings are not compatable if the price difference is that big. Could you tell me which turboTec you plan to use (model & power (KW)) as well as the offered Buderus one. If the Buderus is a GB112, it is a modern condensation heating while the Vaillant seems not to be (to my understanding of the doc). So its old technology now. I would really like to check the prices to see if half the price is normal.

Best regards,
Gaston

[PeterPan]

Hi Bruno..

gratulation to your great website! http://loft.bowa.be/

Is it a documented designer-house? For Design-Artists? I surfed around about 1 our. Very nice!

Special interest is the illumination on fluorecent-lamps and LED-technique controled by dmx2analoge(1-10V)-devices (Martin). Did you know that there is a EIB-DALI-Gate with which you can control 16 chanels?

Best regards
PeterPan

[bowa]

Original geschrieben von Gaston
Could you tell me which turboTec you plan to use (model & power (KW)) as well as the offered Buderus one.

the boderus would be a "Logamax U122K" and the valliant would be a belgian model not mentioned on the german site... pdf (http://edit-be.vaillant.com/mod/netmedia_pdf/data/atmoMAX+turboMAXplus.pdf) turboMAX VUW282

they are not condensation models, but as it is not a whole house, my architect told me i wont notice the difference, between a classic model and a condensation one.

[bowa]

Original geschrieben von PeterPan

gratulation to your great website! http://loft.bowa.be/

Is it a documented designer-house? For Design-Artists? I surfed around about 1 our. Very nice!

thanks, i try to 'blog' all the things that happend with my loft since i bought it. It has been a industrial building since 1850, and was a company that made parts for railway construction (the first railwayline was build between Mechelen and Brussels in 1835). But now, part of it will be my home :D



Special interest is the illumination on fluorecent-lamps and LED-technique controled by dmx2analoge(1-10V)-devices (Martin). Did you know that there is a EIB-DALI-Gate with which you can control 16 chanels?


yes, i am aware of that, in my setup i ll have 4 times the set of (r+g+b+white), making 16 fluorescent lamps, but i ll put them two by two on a Dali ballast (two reds together, two green, ...), so i need 8 channels on the gateway. i know the siemens dali gateway can be programmed in advance, like described on your site Peter, but i was wonder how well it can act on 'realtime' input, later on i would like to make a widget on my site where you can use flash-sliders to controll the color of the lights, so i would need to send a request with a value (over a pc/eib gateway --- too bad the eiblet project died :mad: )
But thats something for the future, basic things now and then growing functionality, thats what i like about EIB, it can grow with my budget.

bruno

[Gaston]

Original geschrieben von bowa
the boderus would be a "Logamax U122K" and the valliant would be a belgian model not mentioned on the german site... pdf (http://edit-be.vaillant.com/mod/netmedia_pdf/data/atmoMAX+turboMAXplus.pdf) turboMAX VUW282

I would believe the turboMAX and turboTec are equivalent (at a first glance). I did also find comparale prices for both, so I am puzzeled about the final diference of 100% between both. Was the offer made by the same company ? So it might be they don't really want to sell Buderus :)

they are not condensation models, but as it is not a whole house, my architect told me i wont notice the difference, between a classic model and a condensation one.

This statement might be correct as well as wrong :D However since the foreseen heating model seems to be a 24 or 28KW model (you forgot to tell me), it must be too powerfull, or the statement is wrong. Unfortunately in Belgium (I believe) as in Luxembourg heating companies are not required to calculate the heating requirements exactely which often leads to heating overkill and thus energy waste. If the power requirements ae correct (and this is a heating dimensioned for a house, or a very large loft) the same benefits as for a house would apply. Especially if you use exclusively floor heating.

As I don't know the loft blueprints (are they online ?) I cannot tell more. But an industrial building from 1850 is not well isolated against the exterior. Thus if the old brick aspect needs to be kept and no additional isolation nor isolated windows are placed in the loft, the power might be right.

The bottomline is, that if the 24 or 28KW are correctely dimensioned for the loft, you will have the same benefits from a condensation heating as for a house. On the other side I don't know if there are any subventions from the government for the condensation heating. If not, the choice is not so easy as you may not save the additional money from reduced energy consumption during the lifetime of the heating.

If the blueprints are online and time permits I will do a DIN4701 heating energy requirements calculation for your loft to see what heating power is really required including the warmwater.

Best regards,
Gaston

[bowa]

real blueprints i dont have online but this is a little map http://loft.bowa.be/loftplan.pdf

its 11m x 13m, the longest side is the one with the windows, the windows are new and have a good insulation value, that wall is in 'old' bricks. the other walls are inner walls and left, right under and above me are lofts too, so those are 'warm'. the height is 3,60 meter and the floor will be in wood.

the architect calculated we ll need 24kw for the radiators. (the company selling them calculated more).

do you need any more information ? thanks in advance for you point of view, i also made a new request for a pricequote for the Buderus one. (if i understand correctly, you then need a buderus/eib device on the kettle and the eib-valves with the siemens n605 to control that first device ? or does the request 'i need heat' come from the gira smartsensor ?)

[Matthias Schmidt]

Original geschrieben von bowa
if i understand correctly, you then need a buderus/eib device on the kettle and the eib-valves with the siemens n605 to control that first device ? or does the request 'i need heat' come from the gira smartsensor ?)

It is nearly the same:

"I need heat" comes from the smartsensor, it tells the valve via the N605 to open e.g. 60%. This Value 60% is sent to the FM446 on the Buderus. I normally use the status objekt on the N605 (which is 60% after a short time) You can send the initial output from the Smartsensor as well, because it says 60%, too .

[eulaersi]

Thanks for the information so far. It's been very useful.

I've also considered the "'thermischer Stellantrieb", but I was thinking to install those electric valves in the basement.

I've a Viessmann Vitodens 200 installed in the basement. From there a collector is used to get to each room.

My goal was to install such electric valves on the collector and not on each radiator (the valves will be controlled by a shaltaktor). The advantage is that I didn't need a bus cable next to each radiator. It looked like a cleaner solution to me. In addition I am going to install a Merten sensor in each room.

Based on the previous discussions, I've learned that it will also be very usefull to install a Viessmann-EIB device to control the pump.

Will this setup be correct, and what additional advantage will offer that Viessmann-EIB device?

Ivan

[Matthias Schmidt]

I don't know the Viessmann device, but with my Buderus FM446 I can control the circulation pump for hot drinking water and the production of hot drinking water itself. It is done by switiching from automatic mode into night mode. There is also an object for "one-time-charge".

I found that especially the control of hot drinking water production can save a lot of energy (and money), if you do it based on real presence in your house or individual need.

[Gaston]

Additionally I would need the dimensions of a window (assumin all are the same) and the thickness of the interior walls (toward the other lofts) and the exterior walls, as well as for the floor and ceiling. For any value you do not have of those (except for the windows) I will assume default values.

Best regards,
Gaston

[bowa]

ok, the inner walls between the lofts are 18cm (photo (http://loft.bowa.be/loft2/slides/Picture%20031.html) ), exterior walls i have no idea, but its solid wall with facingbricks (photo (http://loft.bowa.be/loft3/slides/DSCF1354.html) ). the windows are new well isolated and large:

5 windows of 3m long and 2,7m high
and one of 3m long and 3,4m high (photo (http://loft.bowa.be/loft6/slides/DSCF1526.html) )

because concrete has been poured on top of the existing floors the total tickness of the floor is now 0,5m (yes, no mistake 50cm concrete !) thats my floor and my ceiling.

i hope you can do with this information ??

thanks for your help

[Gaston]

Original geschrieben von bowa

i hope you can do with this information ??

[/B]

Nearly :D

So there are 3 windows per exterior wall, with one larger as on the picture ?

For the thickness of the exterior walls I will assume 40 cm with no isolation nor air gap. Hoever on the picture one could believe to distinguish a small isolation in the bright internal bricks which could indicate the internal presence of an air gap with isolation. But as this would point us to a much younger wall as it seems to be, so I ignore it for now.

Best regards,
Gaston

[bowa]

Original geschrieben von Gaston
So there are 3 windows per exterior wall, with one larger as on the picture ?


yes indeed :-)



For the thickness of the exterior walls I will assume 40 cm with no isolation nor air gap. Hoever on the picture one could believe to distinguish a small isolation in the bright internal bricks which could indicate the internal presence of an air gap with isolation. But as this would point us to a much younger wall as it seems to be, so I ignore it for now.


here (http://loft.bowa.be/loft3/slides/DSCF1378.html) you can see better, its two times the 'length' of the facing brick without airgap. (LOTS of bricks in that wall :) )

[OStein]

Hi,

I used the little program "WBS - Wärmebedarf sofort" to get an idea about the correct size of my heating system... takes 5 minutes max. You can download it here (http://www.shk-lehrer.de/shk-archiv/wbs.exe).

[Gaston]

Hi,

@OStein

FYI: For Condensation Heatings with modulation an approximation like WBS does is useless. It must be calculated as exactely as possible

@ Bowa

I will check for mistakes tomorow, but so far I found a maximum enery requirement of 12KW for the heat disipation by transmission thru the walls and windows, and an aditional 3,5KW for the heat disipation by airflow. This brings us to a maximum of 15,5 KW.

Additional to what I said before I have assumed the following:


Exterior temperature -15 degrees min
Window dissipation factor K=1.1


Even if I take very poor values for the exterior walls I come to 17KW max.

Best regards,
Gaston

[bowa]

thanks for your calculations for the heating, its a great reference !


Original geschrieben von Gaston
I believe that the two heatings are not compatable if the price difference is that big. Could you tell me which turboTec you plan to use (model & power (KW)) as well as the offered Buderus one. If the Buderus is a GB112, it is a modern condensation heating while the Vaillant seems not to be (to my understanding of the doc). So its old technology now. I would really like to check the prices to see if half the price is normal.


i dont have the final pricequote yet from my supplier but from what i can find on the net its quite a big difference
the buderus would be a 'buderus logamax U122K' and the vaillant a 'vaillant turboMAX plus' ...

its a difficult decision :(

i made the decision to put the valves on my radiators and connect them to a siemens N605. and with the vaillant it would end there, but with the buderus, i would need an extra 'buderus fm446'.

*think* *think* *think*

[OStein]

i made the decision to put the valves on my radiators and connect them to a siemens N605.

Have you considered the Busch-Jaeger 6164U? It's a decentralized solution (actuator for the radiator plus two binary inputs for window contacts) that fits in a normal gang box)... You can buy them for ca. 50 Euro a piece at ebay.

[bowa]

so that would mean that i need a valve and one of those 'heizungsaktors' for each radiator ? i think it would make almost the same price as a siemens device as i have 5 radiators in the loft.

is there any other advantage of having 5 aktors instead of 1 like with siemens. (if one aktor fails, the 4 others keep working, would be one advantage that comes to mind first)

[OStein]

the decentralized approach makes sense if you need to EIB-ify your window contacts as well. In that case you don't need to run any cable from the windows to a central point... if it's only about the radiators, you really don't save anything.

[Gaston]

Hi bowa,

Regarding the heating, I did not have the time to exactely compare both, but normally they rely probably on the traditional technique heating some amount water in an internal tank and then pump it thru the pipes at need. If so, the FM446 will probably not help you win much energy and may even make you loose comfort. The most important thing here is that the heating is equiped with an regulated thray-way valve (not a fixed) and at some extend a electronic regulating pump may help.

The FM446 gives best results with a Condensation heating as it has only a very small amount of water in the heating itself. However, as said before for a Condensation heating to work correcly and save energy it must be correctly calculated. Overshooting is not recmoended here.

For the Actuator discussion (indirectly), haven't you considered Floor heating ? I believe that because of the height of your loft this will be very energy efficient as it uses much less convection then radiators but radiation-heat.

Best regards,
Gaston

[bowa]

Original geschrieben von Matthias Schmidt
:) The idea with the shower corner is the reason why I would always use thermoelectric valves on each radiator.

If you want to control the valves differently, but you have only one sensor, then you can use the "Zwangs-Stellung-Objekt" on the N605. That means, you can force the valve to go in a distinct position, no matter what the smartsensor says.

If you use the N605, then you just need a 2 wire cable. However, it is better to use a 5 x 1,5. I would also recommend to bring an EIB-wire to the radiator, just for later expansions.

The Gira part is not made by Gira, it is made by Möhlenhoff http://www.moehlenhoff.de/e/0-prod-asy.htm and sold under different labels. There are other manufacturers, too. I like the Möhlenhoff part because you can see whether the valve is open or not.

I got one more question about this valves, if they are connected with only a 230V one pair wire, how can the N605 controll the device, i mean, i dont see a way to send 'information' to the valve or get a value back, or does it work like, if there is power on the line i totally open the valve, no power, i close the valve ? without being able to open the valve 50% or so ?

thanks for your insight.

[OStein]

does it work like, if there is power on the line i totally open the valve, no power, i close the valve ? without being able to open the valve 50% or so ?

Exactly. The actuator opens and closes the valve so that the desired temperature is being approximated.

[Matthias Schmidt]

The N605 gets no direct feedback. There is one parameter telling the N605 how long it takes for the valve to open and close completely. A common value is 6 minutes. This value is different for different brands of valves.

Now, if the smartsensor says: "Open the valve 50 %" to the N605, then it calculates how long it has to switch on the valve so that in a certain period the valve ist opened 50 % in average.

That means:
If you open the valve 50% for one hour
or
if in one hour you open it completely for 30 Minutes und close it completely for 30 minutes
makes no difference in the end.

With this PWM-control you can use a binary valve for proportional control.

[bowa]

Ok, now i understand better.

So thats the basic difference between these 'dumb' valves (eg Gira part nr 1122 00) in combination with a siemens N605 and for example the 'smart' valves where you can really set the opening you want (eg Gira part nr 1097 00)

The dumb valves are a lot 'nicer' looking cos they are smaller. But i have no idea if there is a lot of difference in the end, in the experience of how it works.

[OStein]

there's another difference: the noise!! If you really plan to use those fancy actuators, make sure you get a chance to HEAR them first in another installation! I did and then decided to use the dumb (but silent) ones...

[Matthias Schmidt]

Another difference is the price - the Dumb/N605 version is cheaper. If you have one room with more than one (parallel)radiators, you only need one channel of the N605. In the smart version you need the expensive valve for each radiator.

The other advantage is noise. The dumb ones are noiseless, the smart ones can be heard. Especially in sleeping rooms I have bad experience with this type.

In the end: Be confident! It works in tenthousands of EIB houses!

[bowa]

thanks Ostein and Matthias,

i am convinced :-)

the dumb valves together with the 'smart' n605 it will be.

[Matthias Schmidt]

In "GIRA" prices:

6 x Dumb 230 = 6 x 27,27
1 x Aktor = 233
=========
Sum 396

6 x smart valve = 6 x 185
=========
Sum 1110